Interview with Jack Laws, Part 1 of 2

Transcript

A long-standing goal at the Blue Orchard Bee is to improve the accessibility of our resources for all of our listeners and readers. This year will are working toward this goal by republishing some of your favorite episodes with new, fully edited transcripts. Originally from the Spring 2022 series, we're re-releasing this interview with Jack Laws with this new and fully-edited transcript. In this interview, Jack about his experience as a child who grew up with differences. This is Part One of Jack's heartfelt story.

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Intro

[This intro highlights the 2022 conference taking place just after this interview was originally published. Read more and join us for the 2024 gathering here!]

Before we begin today's session of the Blue Orchard Bee, Kim Scarborough invites you all to join her at her fireside chat at this year's conference in Wilmore, Kentucky, Meeting the Needs of Neuroatypical Learners.

“I would like to invite everyone to come to a chat where we can talk about meeting the needs of our neuroatypical learners in a Charlotte Mason education. We can discuss what accommodations we might need to make to honor their personhood, so we do not despise, hinder, or neglect them, while still providing a broad and generous feast of living ideas. The thing that I like so much about a Charlotte Mason education is that it's a relational education. And it's also a therapeutic education, which has helped me so much with my own students.

So, I started thinking about: what is typical and then what would be atypical. So, typical just is a statistic term, not an ideal or a goal, but it's the neurology of the majority of people. So, most of our students will be typical students. Their nervous system, their neurology is like the nervous system of most other people. But then we have people with different nervous systems and neurology - and they could be autistic, ADHD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, dyscalculia, dyslexia, developmental language disorder, intellectual disabilities, epilepsy, brain damage. All of those things can play into a neuroatypical learner with some differences. I feel like we can take all of Charlotte Mason's wonderful principles and use them all with neuroatypical learners. We just can adjust some of our practices to meet the needs of these students better.”

For more information about the 2022 conference, including speaker bios and abstracts, please visit the CMI homepage and click 'Conference.'

Welcome to the Blue Orchard Bee. John Muir Laws is a longtime friend of the Institute, but did you know that he is also a Blue Orchard Bee? Today, Danielle interviews Jack about his experience as a child who grew up with differences. This is Part One of Jack's heartfelt story. To see Jack's work as a nature educator, visit his website johnmuirlaws.com. Now let's listen to Danielle's conversation with Jack Laws.

Interview

Danielle: So, why don't we just start - I wanted to find out kind of what you're working on right now. What are you excited about? I know you just had a conference and I know you're always busy. So, I just want you to tell us a little bit about whatever you've got going on right now that's exciting.

Jack: Right now I'm still deep in working on new videos for the Nature Journal Connection. I want to do a total of 40 in all. And they're really, really fun to do because they're kind of an excuse to, well first of all for me to get out and journal somewhere. I'm going to go to work now, right, and just pull out my journal and just get lost in whatever I've been looking at. And recently I've done a few episodes from my garden. I know very little about growing vegetables, but I'm kind of bluffing my way through it and I've been Nature Journaling part of that and some of those have shown up on the Nature Journal Connection. And it's just crazy to watch things grow and change. And so I'm really enjoying my Nature Journal as a vehicle for documenting change.

Danielle: So, I wanted to jump right in here and ask you kind of just about your experience looking back. I think it's really helpful for parents and educators to have these perspectives of those of us who are now grown-up adults and looking back on our experiences with the perspective that we have growing up with differences. So, can you tell us just a little bit about your experience with dyslexia and /or ADHD or whatever else you want to share just about, you know, growing up as a student and just, you know, a kid and...

Jack: Well, thank you, I would love to. The more that I, that I talk about it, the more it really just helps me embrace what happened to me and also because that informs sort of what I do now as a big kid. And at a very early age, my parents saw that my brain wasn't working like everybody else's, particularly in things like spelling, sort of the classic things, that spelling reversals. I had a really hard time in mathematics. But then on other activities, I would be, they were just effortless for me.

Imagine that someone was colorblind and was told just to, you know, to try a little bit harder.

And so there's this real disparity between my sort of performance and these different tasks. And there's, at that time, there was an early team of people who were studying this sort of evolving, sort of beginning to form a field of learning disabilities and dyslexia. And they were at the University of California, San Francisco, which was near my house. They had a group team there called the Child's Study Unit. And they brought me in. And they had me do, you know, for me, I thought it was just like, 'oh, we get to come in and we're going to play all these games.' They were, you know, little puzzles. And then you try to draw this, and you draw that. And then, and so I went through all their, their, their activities. And at the end, they read me some Peter Rabbit stories. And then, you remember that old, very wide lined paper, maybe it's about a, maybe three centimeters tall with a little red dashed line in the middle. So, you're going to practice your letters. And they had a sheet of that with - and they wrote out the words 'Peter Rabbit' on it. And they, I was to copy those letters on the line immediately below what they had. And they, and they watched as I was very, very careful, took my time, sort of made my best shapes and, you know, great attention to detail. And then I proudly pushed a little piece of paper across the table, where it said, 'Deter Raddit.' And I think there's kind of a round of high fives among the researchers because like, 'we got one here,' right? And so I became Johnny Doe in a whole bunch of these early, these early studies on dyslexia. And a bunch of their folks got their PhDs studying my little brain. And for me, it was fun because they were just, they were nice people. And after school, I would go to the building with all the nice doctors and we'd play games. And then they would, you know, we'd go for a walk and we would talk about things. And then we'd go back and we'd play more games. And every once in a while, they would give you a pencil that would say UCSF. And those were just prized possessions for me because they had full erasers on them. And so for me, it was an absolute win-win situation.

But in those days, sort of understanding of dyslexia was, you know, beginning to form in these academic circles, but not - that information hadn't really reached the schools. And so these researchers would then go, they would then go with my mother and me to talk to the teachers and they're trying to explain to the teachers and they - it was really interesting because there were just very, very different responses from different teachers.

For some of them, they were just absorbing this new information like sponges. And I remember there's one teacher who's kind of, I was having a, you know, difficult time kind of grocking the whole discussion. And they, the researcher used the analogy of this person, I think we just wanted me to try a little bit harder. And they said, you know, imagine that someone was colorblind and was told just to, you know, to try a little bit harder. And the teacher looked down and said, I'm colorblind. And completely got it and tried to incorporate their ideas into what they were doing. Other teachers were still convinced that they were right and that, you know, just they had seen lots of people push through a lot of different things. And we needed just to buck up here and try harder. And it was, it was difficult when you'd kind of get a number of those teachers in a row for a year after year, because you then - you start to believe their narrative.

And I remember one teacher in particular who felt that I, I think he felt that I was smart - whatever that means - but was not performing. And so it must be laziness. So, his solution was just, you know, humiliation. And, you know, he would, whenever they'd pass out tests, they would do them from the lowest grade first and you'd have me sort of parade up to the front of the room while everybody giggled to collect my spelling test.

And after a while, you begin to believe that because on a certain level, you know that your parents and friends are there to say nice, they say nice things to you. And I'd seen grown-ups say nice things that weren't true, but were nice. And sort of the - if we, sort of one of the simplest explanations for why I can't do these, why still don't know my multiplication tables, you know, it could be all the stuff that these doctors are talking about, or it could be that there's this thing called stupid. And some kids are smart and some kids aren't. And so I began to believe that. And by end of elementary school, going into high school, I thought that was pretty clearly the case.

So, my defense was I became kind of a class clown.

There are a few things that, you know, there were these anomalies. I was an awesome Boy Scout. Like, I still hold the record for the fastest 'bowl and tot' in the San Francisco Bay Area Council. And the, but on lots of sort of the school stuff, the academic stuff, you know, I would try to read the same books as everybody else read and, and I couldn't. Or I tried to do it in a way that was faster and so I could try to catch up. And then I would have just zero retention. And so I also then started to believe that narrative.

So, my defense was I became kind of a class clown. And I could make people laugh. And I could be silly. But if you were laughing, you were laughing at that mask, that character, and you weren't laughing at me. Because I was hiding several layers inside those shells. And you could, you could laugh at that funny kid, but that's still, that's not me. I think I also had some challenges with, just sort of, you know, setting boundaries and kind of impulse control. I remember, it's so difficult to get through a break in high school without starting a pillow fight with the cushions in the lounge. And then, you know, march off to the headmaster's office again.

Still had papers, all these papers - you'd come in, you put your ideas down and they'd come back just covered with red pen. And I could look around, you know, even though humiliation wasn't being used as a tool - we compare ourselves to each other and you're aware that other people aren't having difficulty with that. In, I think it was perhaps in my junior year in high school that sort of simultaneously two teachers broke through to me in a way that was different. There were kind of, you know, the odd unusual classes that I would just surprisingly excel in. But then if you've got the narrative that you're the stupid, stupid kid, you can just sort of write these off as anomalies.

You know, for instance, geometry was just a game for me. It was just easy.

You know, for instance, geometry was just a game for me. It was just easy. I would look at these things and I would figure out alternate proofs. And, you know, I'd look at the pictures. It was just looking at pictures and shapes. And of course there's this, this, and this, or you could do it this, or this way, or this way, or this way, or this way, or this way. And why not? While you're at it, why not? If you could do that, then you could do that. Oh, actually, that's the thing we're going to be learning next week. But, you know, I was, it was just a game for me. But I was able to kind of discount that as a sort of the, as a sort of an anomaly or an exception.

But I think in the junior year, there was, there was a history teacher, Leroy Voto. And I was taking an American Revolution class with him. And I was, I just dove into the writings of a bunch of the sort of the philosophers that we were discussing, you know, reasons to stay with the Crown or not. And I found it fascinating. And this teacher engaged me with the ideas and never corrected my spelling. And saw me differently.

This teacher engaged me with the ideas and never corrected my spelling. And saw me differently.

And at the same time, there was a biology teacher. I wanted to take a certain biology class, but I wasn't able to do it because of the way that the schedule was organized. But a teacher, Alan Ridley - He would take his lunch breaks and do just sort of a solo class with me. I'd come into his office and we'd just do a solo class and he taught me that class that year. And so that I could then join in the subsequent year in my senior year and so to be able to do these ones that I really wanted to, these other classes. But I would fill the margins of my books with questions. And so I would read the books and, and I had all of these, sort of these systems of doodles and notes and this kind of crazy marginalia that would go along with my reading. And then I would come in and he would ask me a few questions and then I would just start asking him questions. And we realized at the end that actually, what it's, sort of what we, the real gold was when I would come in with all these questions and I just start peppering him with these questions. Well, that's so then how this and then why that and then what are the implications with this. And it was this, wonderful again, you know, I felt seen and I believed I could do this stuff. And because of that, I think I was able to. They weren't looking at my spelling. They were interested in my ideas. And because they were respecting my ideas, I was too.

I felt seen and I believed I could do this stuff. And because of that, I think I was able to. They weren't looking at my spelling. They were interested in my ideas. And because they were respecting my ideas, I was too.

Alan Ridley. Leroy Voto. I'm always going to remember their names. And what they did for me, you know, you don't, you don't need the perfect teachers every year. Sometimes there's just somebody that you meet at one point in your progression that helps you, helps you rewrite the narrative. And I feel really grateful. I feel really grateful to those people. They're also, I think, a few other people along the way who were, who were trying to help me. But I don't think I could see it. But those two at the right place at the right time were what I needed to reframe myself and my experience and to look at the dyslexia in a different way that it is just, that my brain is working differently and it has nothing to do with how smart you are. And so that's a challenge? Okay, what are you going to do about it? All right, I'm going to get books on tape.

But those two at the right place at the right time were what I needed to reframe myself and my experience and to look at the dyslexia in a different way that it is just, that my brain is working differently and it has nothing to do with how smart you are.

If you believe that you're not smart, it doesn't make sense to do all this other extra work. It doesn't make a difference, if you're the 'dumb' kid. But if you realize that it's just a mechanical thing and I need to come up with a strat-, I need to problem solve my way around that, then I can. And it's a different mindset. It's a really empowering mindset. And so now I think like, okay, I've got, if something's a challenge, I think going through that process, I'm one of the lucky ones because it didn't destroy me. Dyslexics are grossly overrepresented in both as CEOs of Fortune 500 companies because they think differently and also the general prison population because we think differently.

And if it doesn't completely tear you down, and I think the hardest part is being there in school. As a grown-up, it's been, I think, being dyslexic - it's a gift. It's an incredible gift because I've never been able to go through the front door. And so I look at any situation and I know that there are 50 different ways or more to approach this. And so I can try that and it didn't work then try this and it didn't work and then try this and this and this. And so my brain is used to this whole idea of alternate solutions instead of just one way to crawl towards unanswered, we might be able just to jump to an optimal answer. And if that didn't work, let's go to go in a different direction.

As a grown-up, it's been, I think, being dyslexic - it's a gift. It's an incredible gift because I've never been able to go through the front door.